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    Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

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    Pilgrim

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    Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Pilgrim on Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:48 pm

    I wasn't sure what forum to place this in, so I'm putting it here. I posted the following in response to Tim Brister's blog post here Brister was responding to this article in (Southern) Baptist Press.

    I am thankful that Driscoll is sounder in doctrine than most, but I cannot endorse his continued flirtation with the more vulgar aspects of our culture. I much prefer the MacArthur model and think MacArthur got it right in stating that this emergent approach to culture (if not doctrine) will stifle progress toward authentic sanctification. As for the talk of “younger leaders,” I’m 35 and would probably fall into that category, but I couldn’t disagree more with Brister and the other defenders of Driscoll on this issue.

    Like I said on Burleson’s blog [in opposition to the evangelical feminism promoted there, among other things] if this stance makes me a “fundy” from the perspective of some of the “Calvinists” and others in the SBC, so be it. If Tim Brister’s embrace of such (as well apparently to some extent the PCA’s MNA, which has been the left wing of the PCA since at least the early 80’s) is indicative of the future direction of Founders, then I’m saddened and simply not interested in going down that path. (Many of the more hard core Reformed men would look askance at me anyway due to my premillenialism, because it’s “unreformed.”) We hear the talk of “younger leaders” being forced out, but the path of many of these “younger leaders” is going to be rejected by more younger people than they know. Paul Washer is also held in very high esteem by many younger people, and his approach on these types of issues couldn’t be more different than Driscoll’s.

    Just because somebody’s a “Calvinist” (and Driscoll describes himself as a 4 1/2 pointer) doesn’t mean he is therefore sound. I learned that well during my time in conservative Presbyterianism when I saw some embracing heretical views on justification. (Unfortunately, it seems some in the SBC seminaries have to at least some degree embraced the New Perspective on Paul mediated through N.T. Wright as well.) We also can’t just excuse what a man does just because he is close to some leader that he respect. Too often in our circles, I think there’s a knee jerk reaction to defend a fellow Calvinist when he’s criticized by a non-Calvinist, no matter what the issue is. That’s part of the mentality that drives Wade Burleson's followers, and who knows how many have moved left on gender issues, etc. with him as a result.
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    Ivan

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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Ivan on Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:03 pm

    SBC politics.


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    elnwood

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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by elnwood on Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:01 am

    Personally, I'm not a big fan of publicly criticizing brothers in Christ in harsh terms without going to them first. I have great respect for John MacArthur, but he was guilty of making public criticisms of Driscoll, and Driscoll was really hurt because Driscoll didn't hear anything from MacArthur until he had gone public.

    I know some people say that, well, so-and-so is a public figure, so it's allowable. But non-Christians read blogs and news articles and sees how much criticism goes on, and Catholics see Protestantism as divisive factions. I think we can do better.

    I'm not saying that we should never criticize other Christians, but surely we can do it in a manner respecting them as brothers in Christ.

    I was thinking recently that in the U.S. we can afford to be really divisive in our theology and in our denominational divisions, but if we were in a country where there was very little Christian presence, we would be so thankful for other Christians at all, whatever their background.
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    Ivan

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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Ivan on Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:21 am

    Amen, sir!


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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Pilgrim on Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:07 pm

    Ivan wrote:SBC politics.

    IMO there is much more involved than just SBC politics, and this isn't just old news. I do prefer the MacArthur approach to ministry, and I reject the idea that if someone makes public statements that Matt. 18 requires you to approach them privately, although in some cases that may be helpful.
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    Ivan

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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Ivan on Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:51 pm

    As to the Baptist Press article, it was inaccurate, at least in its original form (it appears to have been edited after the fact). That if what is being protested, that the facts were wrong. There may be some Southern Baptists that are defending Driscoll because they like him, but most of the concern is over the fact that the article was wrong in many of its statements. As to Driscoll, I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I've read nothing by him nor have I listen to any of his sermons.

    The real problem with Driscoll in the SBC is that there are SBC churches that have supported or are being supported by the Acts 29 venture of Driscoll. Again, I don't know much about that either, but the powers that be don't like SBC churches finding help outside the SBC, which is laughable since SBC churches are suppose to be independent. Also, the fact that Driscoll preached at a SBC seminary (Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary). That angered the powers that be because Driscoll doesn't past their litmus test.

    There is a fundamentalist, landmarkist wing of the SBC that holds a lot of power in the SBC. They also don't like Calvinists. I believe there will come a time very soon when many within the SBC will have to decide if they are going to remain. The thing is, if all leave that are being attacked, the SBC will fold. I don't feel good about that, I wish it wasn't so, but it may be that God is finished with the SBC. Frankly, we all know that God doesn't need the SBC!


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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Pilgrim on Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:16 pm

    Ivan wrote:As to the Baptist Press article, it was inaccurate, at least in its original form (it appears to have been edited after the fact). That if what is being protested, that the facts were wrong. There may be some Southern Baptists that are defending Driscoll because they like him, but most of the concern is over the fact that the article was wrong in many of its statements. As to Driscoll, I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I've read nothing by him nor have I listen to any of his sermons.

    The real problem with Driscoll in the SBC is that there are SBC churches that have supported or are being supported by the Acts 29 venture of Driscoll. Again, I don't know much about that either, but the powers that be don't like SBC churches finding help outside the SBC, which is laughable since SBC churches are suppose to be independent. Also, the fact that Driscoll preached at a SBC seminary (Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary). That angered the powers that be because Driscoll doesn't past their litmus test.

    There is a fundamentalist, landmarkist wing of the SBC that holds a lot of power in the SBC. They also don't like Calvinists. I believe there will come a time very soon when many within the SBC will have to decide if they are going to remain. The thing is, if all leave that are being attacked, the SBC will fold. I don't feel good about that, I wish it wasn't so, but it may be that God is finished with the SBC. Frankly, we all know that God doesn't need the SBC!

    Brother, it seems we are on opposite sides of this. I am by no means ignorant of SBC politics, the IMB controversy, etc. (I disagree with the IMB baptism guideline, btw.) Wade Burleson and others have, not unlike Norman Geisler tried to do a few years ago with Calvinism, basically redefined the terms to suit their purposes. It appears that you agree with them to a large degree. Essentially now, close communion=Landmarkism, which is ridiculous, as I pointed out in a PB thread some time ago. Close communion was the position of the framers of the 1st and 2nd London Confessions, and it (that Baptism is prerequisite to the Lord's Supper) is taught in every Baptist confession that addresses the issue. If you disagree, fine. If close communion is Landmark, then the Particular Baptists of England like William Kiffin, Benjamin Keach and John Gill were Landmark, which is ridiculous. Bunyan's view of open membership (i.e. not requiring immersion for membership) has never been the prevailing Baptist view. If I come to a similar view, I'll get into a Bible church or something similar or will at least not attempt to pass myself off as a "Historic Baptist" as some are doing today.

    I agree that God doesn't need the SBC. To a large degree, the SBC is too liberal for me. I'm not interested in what Dabney called "broad Churchism." I think if I'm accountable for where my other $$ goes, then I am surely accountable for my tithes as well. I have serious concerns about the Cooperative Program, which is the sacred cow of SBC life. I'm not interested in cooperating with charismatics in building churches (there is at least one in my association) or in supporting missionaries who use the Camel method, to name just a couple of examples. I'm not an independent fundamental Baptist, but I am a separatist in the mold of Lloyd-Jones and perhaps MacArthur. It seems that that alone makes me a "fundy" in the eyes of many of these "younger leaders," although that idea is laughable to real IFB's. I'm younger than many of these "young leaders," and I ain't buying. There is just as much of a party spirit about them as there is with many of the old guard in the SBC.

    The BP article was not inaccurate. I ask you to check the facts for yourself rather than relying on the word of others who have their own agenda. (The website in question is still linked on the Mars Hill site. So this is by no means "old news.") The subsequent paragraphs in the article were added the next day for clarification of the fact that Driscoll did repent over his use of language. However, this latest episode is just the lastest manifestation of poor judgment by a man who has a consistent pattern of going over the line in this area in an apparent attempt to be cool, to titillate and be edgy. Some are setting up a false dichotomy between those who never discuss sex in any context and a pastor whose church website links to a website that could well cause some to stumble. (The site is run by "Christian" women who dispense sex advice, defend sodomy and sell sex toys.) The iMonk (Michael Spencer), who is no fundy by any stretch, said that Driscoll linking to the site act was a "serious piece of stupid." He can see the problem, but sadly it seems that many of these so called "younger leaders" and others who like to toss around the buzzwords of contextual, missional, etc. are yet blind to it.
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    Ivan

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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Ivan on Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:40 pm

    Wade Burleson and others have, not unlike Norman Geisler tried to do a few years ago with Calvinism, basically redefined the terms to suit their purposes. It appears that you agree with them to a large degree
    .
    Not at all. I actually don't know that much about Burleson. You appear to know more about the SBC than I do. I am a nomial SBCer. Although I have been one all my life I really don't pay much attention to the goings on of the Convention.
    If I come to a similar view, I'll get into a Bible church or something similar or will at least not attempt to pass myself off as a "Historic Baptist" as some are doing today.

    What are you talking about?

    The BP article was not inaccurate...The subsequent paragraphs in the article were added the next day for clarification of the fact that Driscoll did repent over his use of language.
    Added...edited...they changed it. Whether Driscoll is right or wrong...don't know. Whether he or she said this or that. It's ALL politics. As one who is not a Southern Baptist I'm surprised at how....hmmm....don't know the phrase to use here...."worked up"(?) you are getting over this. It will be alright.
    What has been the result of all this for me is that I am now interested in finding out about Driscoll. Probably not worth my time, but I think I'll listen to some of his sermons and see what he is all about. I think I can handle it.


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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Pilgrim on Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:42 pm

    First of all, Ivan, I actually am a member of a Southern Baptist church, although perhaps somewhat like yourself that's really not my identity as it is with some. It's certainly not my background, as I've never been a member of a Baptist church of any kind until recently. I'd say that I'm baptistic and happen to belong to a Southern Baptist church at this point in time. However, I have been an interested observer of the SBC for several years, even prior to my becoming a Presbyterian. The agenda driven nonsense and party spirit that I've recently seen from all sides doesn't leave me hopeful for the future. Something like FIRE may be more preferable to me at this point, or perhaps an independent church similar to the one MacArthur pastors.

    As far as what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the idea that someone who follows what the 1st London Baptist Confession says about baptism and the Lord's Supper is Landmark. The idea that baptism (immersion) is prerequisite to the Lord's Supper is not Landmark. It's expressed in every Baptist confession that addresses the issue. Of course that doesn't mean that we are thereby bound to accept it. But there are some who don't accept it that claim to be "Historic Baptists," which is inaccurate at best. There was more to the Founders of the SBC and the English Particular Baptists than soteriology. What I was saying is that if I come to the conviction (and it's possible that I may) that I can't agree with the Baptist confessions on this issue, I'm not going to call myself a "Historic Baptist." It's the difference between being baptistic (or antipaedobaptist) and being Baptist with a capital "B."

    Not everyone who has more or less "Baptist Identity" views is non-Calvinist or anti-Calvinist. There are a good many men at Southern who would share that emphasis as well. It's basically a similar dynamic to what you see among the Presbyterians with the Barely or Broadly Reformed and Truly Reformed.


    Last edited by Pilgrim on Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Ivan

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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Ivan on Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:50 pm

    I don't see what this has to do with Driscoll.


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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Pilgrim on Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:51 am

    Ivan wrote:I don't see what this has to do with Driscoll.

    My concern is that some of those who are IMO falsely continuing to say that the BP article was inaccurate are doing so because they are as agenda driven as their perceived enemies are. But maybe I should just drop it at this point and get on with my life. Smile
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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Ivan on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:14 am

    Guess it depends on whose ox is gored. My ox is doing well.


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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Pilgrim on Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:26 pm

    Ivan wrote:Guess it depends on whose ox is gored. My ox is doing well.

    Ivan,

    Perhaps I misunderstood your position, given your amens of Brister, Alvin Reid, et. al. I respect those men, but obviously do not agree with them in this case.
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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by GMcClain20 on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:05 pm

    Pilgrim:

    not unlike Norman Geisler tried to do a few years ago with Calvinism

    Not to hijack the thread but what are you referring to? I am reading "From God to Us: How We Got Our Bible" which is coauthored by Geisler. I'm not really familiar with him. Should I be concerned about his theology? In the mean time I'll google him!


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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Ivan on Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:52 pm

    Concerning Driscoll, not a supporter, but I don't have any frame of reference. I did not like the article. Poorly written and, in my opinion, inaccurate.

    Regarding Brister and Reid, don't know them personally but respect both of them. I'd imagine I could be good friends with both.

    Geisler....yes, be careful, Travis. Frankly, I wouldn't waste my time reading him.


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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Pilgrim on Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:13 pm

    Ivan wrote:Concerning Driscoll, not a supporter, but I don't have any frame of reference. I did not like the article. Poorly written and, in my opinion, inaccurate.


    If you have no frame of reference then on what basis can you judge the article to be inaccurate? What they reported about the link on the Mars Hill site to what is at best a borderline porn site is accurate and is true this very minute. My issue is not so much with Driscoll himself as with his defenders. But they've cast their lot and evidently will not be convinced otherwise. Not a few Calvinists in the SBC who have checked out the facts for themselves feel they've been thrown under the bus by Founders on this issue with the latter's pragmatism being evident.

    Here's my last post on the issue:
    http://onepilgrimsprogress.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/summary-on-mark-driscollbaptist-pressyoung-leader-controversy/
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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Ivan on Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:24 pm

    Dead issue to me. Enough.


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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Pilgrim on Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:25 pm

    Pilgrim wrote:
    Ivan wrote:Concerning Driscoll, not a supporter, but I don't have any frame of reference. I did not like the article. Poorly written and, in my opinion, inaccurate.


    If you have no frame of reference then with all due respect on what basis can you judge the article to be inaccurate? That's really what prompted my blogging on the issue, the continued assertion that the BP article contained "old news" when in fact what it reported is very current with regard to the linkage to the offensive site.

    My issue is not so much with Driscoll himself as with his defenders. But they've cast their lot and evidently will not be convinced otherwise. Not a few Calvinists in the SBC who have checked out the facts for themselves feel they've been thrown under the bus by Founders on this issue with the latter's pragmatism being evident. One man told me the other day that he has removed his name from the Founders Friendly list over this.

    FWIW, here's my last post on the issue:
    http://onepilgrimsprogress.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/summary-on-mark-driscollbaptist-pressyoung-leader-controversy/
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    Ivan

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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Ivan on Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:28 pm

    You're repeating yourself.
    Do you have the BP article in its first posting?


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    Re: Dust up over Baptist Press article on Driscoll

    Post by Pilgrim on Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:08 pm

    Ivan wrote:You're repeating yourself.
    Do you have the BP article in its first posting?

    To answer this question I will have to repeat myself again Smile

    I don't think I have a copy of the original BP article. However, the revised version merely added two paragraphs to add context to the issue with regard to his being previously known as "The Cussing Pastor." It was obvious however even in the first version that what was being addressed was not the same old "cussing" issue, but his linkage to the website that many thought went over the line.

    You can have the last word on this if you wish.

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