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    Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

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    Adam
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    Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by Adam on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:11 pm

    Many of us used to be in the Charismatic Word Faith movements (Hinn, Bently, Osteen, TBN, etc.) and all of us came out of it. Note that I am NOT discussing smaller issues like sabbatarianism, baptism, EP, etc. but wild, crazy error that may even be heretical (or flat out is!)

    Do you think there are soundly saved individuals that remain in that kind of error and Church until glory?


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    MrMerlin777

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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by MrMerlin777 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:22 pm

    Just as God can save a Roman Catholic inspite of their church. I'm certain that some who are in this kind of error can be saved inspite of it. Though I would add that IMO they'd be few and far between.
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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by Adam on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:25 pm

    I know ultimately only God knows for sure, just thought I'd see what others general opinion is. I won't say none in serious error will be saved but I have my doubts. Are they on the narrow path?


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    Scottish Lass

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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by Scottish Lass on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:34 pm

    A friend of mine grew up Catholic. When she came to a saving knowledge of Christ, she left the Catholic Church. I think it would be hard to stay in a church with serious error unless one is simply unaware of what His Word says. Ultimately, though, I hold as you--that God alone knows.

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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by Pilgrim on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:31 pm

    Hard to say how much heresy someone can believe and still be saved. The key is whether or not the person is trusting in Christ alone for his salvation. I think that can be true of a person who is still ignorant or poorly taught on a great many things.

    I'm thankful that my formative influences were all fairly sound. That includes Dave Hunt! He's certainly anti-Calvinist (and to an extreme,) but reading some of his books definitely set me on a course against charismaticism, occultic influences in the church, etc. Right after reading one of Hunt's books, I started reading MacArthur, who would be my main influence for several years. My Wesleyan pastor (the first pastor I had after I was converted) was also strongly opposed to charismaticism. His favorite MacArthur book was Charismatic Chaos.
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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by larryjf on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:59 pm

    The main question has to be, "do they repent of their sins and put their faith in Christ alone?" Anyone outside of this simple Gospel i would say is not saved. They may have theological errors here and there, but the Gospel is essential.
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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by Adam on Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:39 pm

    I guess I'm wondering how long one can be "saved" and not hunger for more and greater truths. I came out of serious, serious error (well besides the grace of God of course!) because my desire to learn and understand more drove me further and further into study.

    I suppose I don't understand how a soundly saved person doesn't desire to explore, learn, and understand more of and about God. I want to believe that if one does this more and more "junk" will fall away.


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    larryjf

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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by larryjf on Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:46 pm

    Adam wrote:I guess I'm wondering how long one can be "saved" and not hunger for more and greater truths. I came out of serious, serious error (well besides the grace of God of course!) because my desire to learn and understand more drove me further and further into study.

    I suppose I don't understand how a soundly saved person doesn't desire to explore, learn, and understand more of and about God. I want to believe that if one does this more and more "junk" will fall away.
    I agree with the essence of what you're saying. I would add that we don't know when God calls us to glory. I think that the elect are brought to glory at different maturity levels.
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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by GMcClain20 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:04 pm

    I have grappled with this question myself. I will generally try to be understanding with someone in error if they present a sound knowledge of the gospel of grace, in spite of gross error on other issues. I can't see how so many churches could possibly all be apostate and filled to the brim with lost people. I've been chastised for this view and asked what makes me so sure that's not the case! I still just don't see how the gospel hasn't gotten to some of them. I've heard the gospel in churches with otherwise bad or ridiculous theology. In the midst of charismaticism I've heard what I believe are genuine professions of faith.

    Like I said concerning bad bible translations the gospel will shine no matter how it's recorded, just not in all its splendor in some cases. Has anyone else not seen God gloriously transform someones life in spite of certain error? I have. It is our job I think to be supportive and use our wisdom to guide them into more orthodox waters.


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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by Adam on Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:08 pm

    It is our job I think to be supportive and use our wisdom to guide them into more orthodox waters.

    A BIG part of what I want us to do here.

    If any of you know of someone willing to learn about the real gospel message even though they aren't completely there yet feel free to send them here!


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    elnwood

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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by elnwood on Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:59 pm

    Just because a person is truly a Christian does not mean they can be deceived, even badly deceived. We live in a society where ideas are readily available and freely exchanged, but in other places people may be undereducated or illiterate and out of necessity depend on their church leaders for their doctrine.

    If Benny Hinn was the only "Christianity" you knew and you weren't confident enough to interpret the Bible for yourself, wouldn't it be easy to be in error, even for a true Christian?
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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by GMcClain20 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:14 pm

    elnwood wrote:
    If Benny Hinn was the only "Christianity" you knew and you weren't confident enough to interpret the Bible for yourself, wouldn't it be easy to be in error, even for a true Christian?

    I see your point, and almost agree. My concern is this, is that an excuse not to seek the truth? I mean, what if Luther would have just conceded to the Catholic Churches authority to interpret scripture? In their eyes he wasn't able to make up his own mind, and surely some of peers agreed. I'm not saying your wrong, but can you defend ignorance?


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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by larryjf on Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:43 pm

    Perhaps we could also consider how Hosea 4:6 plays into this...

    My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
    because you have rejected knowledge,
    I reject you from being a priest to me.
    And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
    I also will forget your children.
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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by GMcClain20 on Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:26 pm

    Thanks for citing Hosea. That sheds light on the issue! Maybe, as Adam keeps pointing out, this is the reason for the existence of this forum.


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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by Adam on Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:39 pm

    I'm going to write a note on Facebook soon that any of you can copy if you want, inviting people to come and learn here. It will clearly be written towards those who want to know/understand and not to those who want to come and make a fuss.


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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by elnwood on Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:39 am

    GMcClain20 wrote:
    elnwood wrote:
    If Benny Hinn was the only "Christianity" you knew and you weren't confident enough to interpret the Bible for yourself, wouldn't it be easy to be in error, even for a true Christian?

    I see your point, and almost agree. My concern is this, is that an excuse not to seek the truth? I mean, what if Luther would have just conceded to the Catholic Churches authority to interpret scripture? In their eyes he wasn't able to make up his own mind, and surely some of peers agreed. I'm not saying your wrong, but can you defend ignorance?

    Hi Travis,

    I won't defend ignorance. You're right; there is no excuse.

    But I think the original question was whether this ignorance is possible for a true Christian. My answer is yes, it is possible. True Christians still sin, and thus they can still do inexcusable things.
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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by spokenfor on Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:44 am

    Adam wrote:I'm going to write a note on Facebook soon that any of you can copy if you want, inviting people to come and learn here. It will clearly be written towards those who want to know/understand and not to those who want to come and make a fuss.

    Looking for a fight, Adam? Better get some good Mods all ready.

    I'm all for hashing things out. I love the PB, but have found since joining that I don't really subscribe to all the things they subscribe to at this time. So I think a little more freedom is great, but we will have to be careful. Another messageboard I was on was sooo open that the board was taken over by the Emergent crowd and those of us with more orthodox views went from being the majority to the minority and were ridiculed until we left. Maybe the board/you should come up with a faith statement of sorts for the board and create forums on the board that are specifically for "debate."

    As to the original question. I struggle with that, too. My mother is one of the strongest Christians I know. She is a charismatic, though. I've known lots of folks in the charismatic movement who are genuinely seeking God and love Him. I can't believe they are not saved just because they believe in speaking in tongues.

    Maybe I should do a spinoff thread, but the whole tongues issue makes my head hurt. Is it real? Is is just gibberish? Is it from the devil?
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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by GMcClain20 on Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:22 am

    elnwood wrote:
    GMcClain20 wrote:
    elnwood wrote:
    If Benny Hinn was the only "Christianity" you knew and you weren't confident enough to interpret the Bible for yourself, wouldn't it be easy to be in error, even for a true Christian?

    I see your point, and almost agree. My concern is this, is that an excuse not to seek the truth? I mean, what if Luther would have just conceded to the Catholic Churches authority to interpret scripture? In their eyes he wasn't able to make up his own mind, and surely some of peers agreed. I'm not saying your wrong, but can you defend ignorance?

    Hi Travis,

    I won't defend ignorance. You're right; there is no excuse.

    But I think the original question was whether this ignorance is possible for a true Christian. My answer is yes, it is possible. True Christians still sin, and thus they can still do inexcusable things.

    Thanks for bringing me back to the original question. I agree Christians sin, even theologically! What should we do if we know someone in a similar situation to what you have hypothesized? (I've been there, that's why I'm asking)


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    elnwood

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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by elnwood on Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:21 pm

    GMcClain20 wrote:
    elnwood wrote:
    GMcClain20 wrote:
    elnwood wrote:
    If Benny Hinn was the only "Christianity" you knew and you weren't confident enough to interpret the Bible for yourself, wouldn't it be easy to be in error, even for a true Christian?

    I see your point, and almost agree. My concern is this, is that an excuse not to seek the truth? I mean, what if Luther would have just conceded to the Catholic Churches authority to interpret scripture? In their eyes he wasn't able to make up his own mind, and surely some of peers agreed. I'm not saying your wrong, but can you defend ignorance?

    Hi Travis,

    I won't defend ignorance. You're right; there is no excuse.

    But I think the original question was whether this ignorance is possible for a true Christian. My answer is yes, it is possible. True Christians still sin, and thus they can still do inexcusable things.

    Thanks for bringing me back to the original question. I agree Christians sin, even theologically! What should we do if we know someone in a similar situation to what you have hypothesized? (I've been there, that's why I'm asking)

    To be honest, I've never been in that situation before. In addition to that, I try not to give too much advice for a given situation because it's impossible to know all the details that might come to bear on these situations.

    As a general principle, though, I would say that you should point people to the Word of God as the highest authority, and try to avoid making it one person's argument versus another person's, i.e. James White says Benny Hinn's a heretic, or I think Benny Hinn is wrong because of such-and-such. And avoid attacks on people's character.

    The key issue is that they need to be more dependent on the Word of God, and not on their teachers. "Teach a man to fish" sort of thing.
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    GMcClain20

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    Re: Will God leave any of His Children in serious error for life?

    Post by GMcClain20 on Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:48 pm

    elnwood wrote:
    GMcClain20 wrote:
    elnwood wrote:
    GMcClain20 wrote:
    elnwood wrote:
    If Benny Hinn was the only "Christianity" you knew and you weren't confident enough to interpret the Bible for yourself, wouldn't it be easy to be in error, even for a true Christian?

    I see your point, and almost agree. My concern is this, is that an excuse not to seek the truth? I mean, what if Luther would have just conceded to the Catholic Churches authority to interpret scripture? In their eyes he wasn't able to make up his own mind, and surely some of peers agreed. I'm not saying your wrong, but can you defend ignorance?

    Hi Travis,

    I won't defend ignorance. You're right; there is no excuse.

    But I think the original question was whether this ignorance is possible for a true Christian. My answer is yes, it is possible. True Christians still sin, and thus they can still do inexcusable things.

    Thanks for bringing me back to the original question. I agree Christians sin, even theologically! What should we do if we know someone in a similar situation to what you have hypothesized? (I've been there, that's why I'm asking)

    To be honest, I've never been in that situation before. In addition to that, I try not to give too much advice for a given situation because it's impossible to know all the details that might come to bear on these situations.

    As a general principle, though, I would say that you should point people to the Word of God as the highest authority, and try to avoid making it one person's argument versus another person's, i.e. James White says Benny Hinn's a heretic, or I think Benny Hinn is wrong because of such-and-such. And avoid attacks on people's character.

    The key issue is that they need to be more dependent on the Word of God, and not on their teachers. "Teach a man to fish" sort of thing.

    I see what you are saying. You hit my issue head on. With a few people I know who claim to not "have the wisdom to understand Scripture" I have appeared hostile at times. It's like I'm defending my favorite reformed ministry against Joel Osteen for example. They say, "how do you know your guy is right?" Pointing them to Scripture brings us back to the "I don't have the wisdom to understand Scripture, so I just don't know what to believe!" I'll being praying about it, thanks for the help!

    How does one 'unhijack' a thread?!


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